Radio Free Europe (RFE) Bridge discussed the causes of constant tensions in relations between Serbia and Montenegro. The interlocutors were Cedomir Cupic, a professor at the Faculty of Political Sciences in Belgrade, and Miodrag Vlahovic, a former Montenegrin foreign minister.
It was discussed why Belgrade constantly criticizes the new Montenegrin government and Prime Minister Krivokapic, even though a good part of the ministers in that government are pro-Serbian, why Belgrade constantly emphasizes that Serbs in Montenegro are unequal, despite the fact that the pro-Serbian Democratic Front is the largest party within the ruling coalition in Montenegro, whether Albanians in Northern Macedonia have greater rights than Serbs in Montenegro, as claimed by Serbian officials.
They also discussed whether Montenegrins are endangered after the change of government in Montenegro, as the pro-Montenegrin parties claim, whether the new government in Podgorica is destroying Montenegrin heritage, who is behind the vulgar desecration of the monument to national hero Cupic, whether the conflict between Serbia and Montenegro's fact that Belgrade has never reconciled with Montenegro's independence, as well as whether tensions in relations with Belgrade threaten the Montenegrin state.
Omer Karabeg: Belgrade often emphasizes that it must take care of the position of the Serbian people in Montenegro because it believes that they are in an unequal position. This is also emphasized in the recent announcement of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia, which says that Serbia has a legitimate and indisputable right to take care of the position of the Serbian people wherever they live and to express dissatisfaction when their rights are endangered. This was a response to the statement of the Montenegrin Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in which it warns of the increasingly frequent negative rhetoric of Serbia directed towards the Government of Montenegro and its Prime Minister Krivokapić. Are the Serbian people in Montenegro unequal?
Cedomir Cupic: I think that is too difficult a grade. It is not unequal. Its position is normatively regulated, it has all the rights arising from international documents and the Constitution of Montenegro. As for the concerns of the Serbian authorities about the members of the Serbian people in Montenegro, I would like to ask the question – are they also worried about the Serbs in the United States? Are they asking for any special rights for them as well? These are our pains after the split that took place in 2006, when Montenegro declared independence. People tied to the government, as well as those from nationalist parties, will never get rid of them. These things need to be looked at soberly. Serbia should not interfere in Montenegro's internal affairs at all.
Omer Karabeg: As proof of the inequality of Serbs in Montenegro, official Belgrade often points out that they enjoy incomparably fewer rights than Albanians in Northern Macedonia. How do you view that comparison?
Miodrag Vlahović: Politicians in Montenegro who define themselves as pro-Serb say that Serbs in Montenegro are a minority when it comes to Serbian television and some other affiliations from the Montenegrin budget, and also claim that they are not a minority but a constituent people, equal to everyone else, which of course is indisputable. All this is happening in the context of a worldview that starts from the false premise that there are no Montenegrins.
As for the comparison with the Albanians, there is a direct word for untruth in our languages, but I am not one of those who will ask a counter question – and what about the rights of Montenegrins in Serbia. Not only in Vojvodina – a northern Serbian province that historically has never been – but in the whole of Serbia. Our and Macedonia's situation are historically, politically and culturally completely incomparable. That kind of comparison might be more understandable if respected friends and colleagues from Serbia compared the treatment of Serbs in Montenegro with the treatment of some other members of national minorities in Serbia. You mentioned two statements.
In the first, which the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Montenegro sent to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, three quarters of the text, if not more, was dedicated to the fact that the Prime Minister of Montenegro is mentioned by the Serbian government in an ugly way. Vučić talks about Serbs in Montenegro as if they are the property of the Republic of Serbia and its president.
The answer of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia was sad to read because they responded in a way that disarmed the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Montenegro, so no answer followed from their side. Because you know, when it unfolds a little bit, it turns out that they both think the same thing. This is the problem of the current Montenegrin government, which in fact, in the matrix of its worldview and activities, does not differ much, in fact at all, from the current Serbian government.
Omer Karabeg: Why is Belgrade dissatisfied with the new Montenegrin government and its prime minister Krivikapic, even though a good part of the ministers in that government are pro-Serbian, and the strongest break in the ruling coalition – the openly pro-Serbian Democratic Front – can block government decisions?
Cedomir Cupic: It is a question of an agreement between the pro-Serbian parties in Montenegro and President Vucic, that is, the top of the Serbian government who always had the pretension to reunite Montenegro with Serbia and return it to the state it was in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. This claim is difficult to abandon when it comes to nationalists and nationalist parties in general, especially those that have territorial claims. The current Montenegrin government does not suit them because they believe that it has not fully become what they expected.
It turned out that the Government still has to take into account what Montenegro's international obligations are and what has already been done when it comes to its strategy. Montenegro has made great strides in the last 15 years of independence. It has joined the NATO pact, one of the most powerful security organizations in the world, where the most developed democratic countries are located. It is – it can be said – on the threshold of joining the European Union.
These are all things that bother the local authorities because tomorrow Montenegro can be a model of what a country's entry into the European Union looks like from a problematic geopolitical environment. And in order to prevent that, then those who are in the Government of Montenegro are accused in various ways. On the other hand, Montenegro, as a civil state, with its constitution and laws guarantees equality to all citizens regardless of ethnic origin. It bothers me here.
The Democratic Front has a special role in criticizing the current government. It is the leaders of the Democratic Front who take part in television shows in Serbia where they are severely accused – not only of the previous government and questioning Montenegro as a state – but also of the Government elected with the support of the same Democratic Front. The biggest criticism of the Montenegrin government comes from parties with nationalist projects and programs. It is terrible when the Government is under such pressure. It then cannot function normally.
Omer Karabeg: Mr. Vlahovic, you said that the current Montenegrin government and the top of Serbia think the same. So why is the top of Serbia constantly dissatisfied with that Government and why is it constantly criticizing it?
Miodrag Vlahović: Serbia wants absolute obedience and obedience of Montenegro. The whole work, which is organized from the so-called lithium, and further has a clear intention to put Montenegro under the control of Serbia. Through President Vučić and through visible and less visible security services, through the media, through a destructive campaign against Montenegro, Serbia is trying to control, discipline, manipulate and direct all government officials. Although there is an impression of alleged constant conflict, instability and, I would say, some chaos in the work of the Montenegrin Government, its activities show a very stable direction, a highway that goes in the direction that is worst for Montenegro.
All the values mentioned by Professor Cupic are being destroyed, the multiethnic and multi-confessional character of our social community is being questioned, and on the cultural level there is absolute marginalization and suppression not only of the identity of ethnic Montenegrins but also of all others in Montenegro who do not define themselves as Serbs. There is a unison effort to destroy Montenegro.
We are no longer as close to the European Union as we were because the values that are the foundations of European integration are being destroyed here. On the other hand, there are certain confusions in the European Union as well, so many moves of the current Montenegrin government and the authorities in Serbia are justified.
Omer Karabeg: Mr. Cupic, while Belgrade says that Serbs are endangered, pro-Montenegrin parties are increasingly emphasizing that Montenegrins are endangered after the change of government in Montenegro. Mr. Vlahović also says that the cultural heritage of Montenegro and the identity of Montenegrins are being destroyed. How do you look at it?
Cedomir Cupic: One nationalism always leads to another. I think it's something that will slowly subside. Everyone who has a raised tone should calm down. All nationalists in Montenegro should know that it is not easy to leave the NATO pact. I think that everyone should come to their senses and leave internal national calculations and calculations. Montenegro cannot lose its statehood, it is a member of the United Nations. In Montenegro, all citizens are equal, they are citizens of Montenegro, which guarantees their ethnic identity. That is what the perspective of Montenegro is.
All nationalists should know that the NATO pact will close Montenegro if conflicts open in it. The future of Montenegro must not be called into question. That is why I encourage Montenegro and its citizens and call for sobriety. Everyone should put their narrower interests in the background, especially those related to sensitive identity issues, and be open to the future and building an institutional order in which everyone will be guaranteed their rights.
No one is allowed to wave his origin and say that it is more important than the origin of others. Then one enters into discrimination, chauvinism, hatred. I see that various hatreds are emerging in Montenegro now, I think that the government should react to that fiercely, to prevent that and not allow individual cases to drag the entire group into conflicts. And Serbian politics should finally come to its senses. If he wants to help, let him help in another way, first of all with good economic relations, by creating relations that will improve the lives of both of them.
Miodrag Vlahović: I have to ask Professor Čupić what nationalisms are in Montenegro and how does he think that one nationalism provokes another? That is to be more precise – is there Montenegrin nationalism in Montenegro?
Cedomir Cupic: No, I did not say that it exists, but when a certain ethnic group or nation finds itself in a situation where it is endangered, it can open that problem. I would not like that problem to open up. It is not good for anyone to wave that problem.
Miodrag Vlahović: I would like to explain why I asked this rhetorical question, to which, of course, the answer is recognizable. Of course, Montenegrin nationalism does not exist and, if it exists, it is absolutely on the margins of the margins – with some individuals who are inevitable in all our peoples and nationalities. But to exist as a political program, as a clear political intention, as a serious effort of those who are directly or indirectly involved in Montenegrin politics – that is an absolute untruth. Serious things are going on in Montenegro and I am not sure that this kind of benevolent-naive statements can help. Of course, we will not choose the path of violence, conflict and confrontation.
15 years ago, in a referendum on independence, Montenegro showed its civilizational, cultural and political capacity to resolve its most important issue peacefully, democratically, without friction and without conflict. Today, however, there is a brutal violation of Montenegrin national rights. I am not saying that because I am a Montenegrin by coincidence. I could have been born in Kuala Lumpur and be something else in life because that is not the determinant that defines me, nor any of us.
We are for the civil community in Montenegro, so that we are all equal and on our own. That is one half of our historical truth and the other is – if there are no Montenegrins, why would Montenegro exist. Here, reconciliation is promoted on the wrong interpretation of our history, on the promotion of Chetniks, collaboration with the occupiers and fascist ideas.
And when we reject such reconciliation, then it is said – do not divide the people, do not talk about it, we should be together, to look to the future. Yes – we should look to the future together, but not on the basis of collaboration with the occupier 70 years ago or – to use the mildest possible expression – benevolence towards war crimes in the former Yugoslavia committed in the name of a certain national chauvinism, to forgive Serbian. If we do not talk about it openly and clearly, there is neither the possibility nor the need to reconcile on these issues. In order for Montenegro to survive, those distinctions must be preserved.
If we project our future in this way, then, of course, there is a way out. Regardless of whether we are ethnic Montenegrins, semi-Montenegrins or Montenegrins in terms of the civic identity of our common state, we must not close our eyes to what is being broadcast today from military intelligence and propaganda media centers in Belgrade and Montenegro. We are exposed to an attack that is very dramatic for us, who live in Montenegro. When you turn on the 150-and-a-few TV, I counted. 112 of them are from Serbia.
We do not intend to respond to open, drastic and aggressive Greater Serbia nationalism and cultural aggression against Montenegro by doing the same. But the problem is that we have a government that thinks about it very marginally or does not think at all. The situation in Montenegro is very dramatic. Dramatizing that situation can only be useful if it is positive. I try to articulate it that way. Not everything is lost and we are not defeated. On the contrary. There is no Montenegrin nationalism in Montenegro that could in any way be a counterpart to Greater Serbian nationalism. These types of explanations are actually the vocabulary of the Democratic Front and Democratic Montenegro. Well, URA.
Cedomir Cupic: I did not say that some Montenegrin extra nationalism appeared in Montenegro. I just said that one nationalism should not be answered with another nationalism. It's more of a warning. And I completely accept that terrible, poisonous media propaganda is being conducted in Serbia towards Montenegro. When you watch televisions like Pink and Happy, you can't believe that people who talk about Montenegro with such hatred can appear in public at all. On the other hand, care should be taken that the citizens of Serbia are not against Montenegro. The people in power and the media machinery are against Montenegro.
It is said that criminals come to Serbia from Montenegro. It is propaganda, it is shifting the blame to others. When you can't solve your problems, then you find someone outside, and you put all the blame on him. It is good that in Montenegro there is an awareness that people of different ethnic origins and different religious beliefs can live together. Anyone who violates this should be marked.
These days we are seeing outbursts of terrible hatred and vulgarity. I am thinking of what happened to the monument to the national hero Cedomir Ljubo Cupic. I was named after him because he is my cousin. It wasn’t done by some unconscious teenager but by a man in his mature years. This cannot be justified by drunkenness. It is a brutal, barbaric act. It is the hatred that lives deep within that man. But it is dangerous if someone accepts that hatred, if it relativizes it. I heard the statement of Mayor Niksic. His statement is not good. He was the first to appear at the rally organized by the anti-fascists.
Miodrag Vlahović: It is not enough to qualify that this statement is not good. The mayor of Nikšić made a statement that is shameful, which is an absolute negation of all the values we stand for. It is an absolute shame. But it’s not the fault of that half-drunk or drunken man who did what he did. He is just a derivative, the end result of social, political and social processes in this country that we cannot ignore.
Because if our four-time minister – who, among other things, deals with Montenegrin culture and who publicly defines herself as a Chetnik woman – attacks Latinka Perović with the ugliest words and calls intellectuals from Yugoslavia Ustashas, then it is a matter of hatred that has entered the system and is represented in the Government of Montenegro. This shameful act by which the monument to the hero Cupic was desecrated is only the last consequence of that policy. And some politicians from the highest places, not only the mayor of Niksic, say that the old government is to blame for that and they are contemplating that it may have been rigged, that it is a staging.
Unfortunately, there is still no real answer from important international addresses to what is happening in Montenegro, regardless of the fact that there is full awareness of it. They are still hiding behind some phrases that the Government of Montenegro is supposedly Euro-Atlantic, respects the European path and European values, and when someone messes up on one of our greatest heroes, then those Europeans behave in a way that is absolutely disgusting.
Here we have a government that humiliates Montenegro, and if you say anything against it, then you are allegedly endangering the so-called national reconciliation. Montenegro needs a historic compromise that there should be a Montenegrin state that should remain independent and be oriented in the Euro-Atlantic direction. But the other side refused to think about that compromise.
When five years ago, before I went to be ambassador to the Holy See, I offered some politicians on that side to act together on one condition only – to publicly say that Montenegro is their country and that they and their parties will never bring in question Montenegrin independence. And you know what the answer was, not just one man? The answer was – I can't say that.
Imagine telling a politician in Serbia – let's work together, to form coalitions, but I have only one condition – to say that Serbia is our country and that Serbian independence is unquestionable. And if he answered that he could not say that – what would the citizens of Serbia think about such a man and such a party? Well, in Montenegro we have such parties and such political leaders.
Omer Karabeg: Do you expect that relations between Serbia and Montenegro will continue to deteriorate?
Cedomir Cupic: The current government will not give it up easily. It will constantly find ways to interfere in the internal affairs of Montenegro, but I hope that it will not have dangerous consequences. Tensions may continue, but they cannot threaten Montenegro as a state. They can make people's lives worse in Montenegro, but in the long run it cannot survive. I accept what Mr. Vlahovic says that sometimes the world does not react in the right way. But there is a critical point when things can no longer be tolerated and then come warnings.
Miodrag Vlahović: I expect further aggravation of relations. I'm sorry to have to say that, but the trends in Serbia are quite the opposite. I think we have days and months of confrontation ahead of us. However, no one can call the citizens of Montenegro, who are ready to resist, to be part of the problem. We are part of the solution. I am not very optimistic about what will happen in Serbia and how. I will repeat what I said recently in an interview for Belgrade's Novi magazine – I hope that Serbia does not need another defeat to make things better in the Balkans.
I am sorry to say this, but I think that Serbia – with the concept of the so-called Serbian world, which is of course just a new name for the concept of “Greater Serbia”, with a nationalist and destructive policy towards the vast majority of its own neighbors – is heading for defeat. to cost the citizens of Serbia. We will see if and to what extent the victims of that defeat will be Serbia's neighbors, including Montenegro, which Serbia says is its closest neighbor and acts as if it is its furthest. But Montenegro also has the capacity and knowledge and ability to defend itself against it.